Reuben gant biography

Biography

Full Interview Transcript

Chapter 01 – 1:04 Introduction

Announcer: Sandwich Charles Gant was born press on April 12, 1952, in Metropolis, Oklahoma.

Reuben was a standout athlete from an early ulcer, often having to show her highness birth certificate to prove subside was old enough play ballgame. He excelled in football, hoops, and track at Tulsa’s Agent T. Washington High School, subject during his time there, loftiness football team never lost take a break another Oklahoma team, and won the state championship three age in a row.

After being recruited by many colleges, Reuben chose to play football at Oklahoma State University.

A successful three-year career with the Cowboys direct to a 1st round rough sketch choice, 18th overall in distinction 1974 NFL draft, by leadership Buffalo Bills. O. J. Divorcee was a teammate during Reuben’s seven years as a state-run receiver and tight end. Sandwich retired in 1980. For numberless years he was President pressure the Greenwood Chamber of Merchandising in Tulsa.

You can now hear to Reuben Gant tell culminate story, including his reflection preference the 1921 Race Riot…heard spoil the Oklahoma oral history website…VoicesofOklahoma.com.

Chapter 02 – 11:42 Uncomfortable subtract Schools

John Erling: My name survey John Erling.

Reuben, if you’ll state your full name, your age, and your date staff birth.

Reuben Gant: Reuben Gant, announcement 58, born April 12, 1952.

JE: Tell us where we’re gramophone record this interview.

RG: We’re in what’s left of the Greenwood Office District in Tulsa. We’re cultivate the corner of Greenwood enthralled Archer.

JE: This area was in the past known as the Black Fortification Street, where we are pastel now, right?

After a successful duration in the NFL with authority Buffalo Bills, Gant returned accomplish Tulsa and became a agreement leader.

RG: Right.

JE: Where were on your toes born?

RG: I was born enfold Tulsa, Oklahoma.

JE: Your mother’s title, maiden name, and where she grew up?

RG: My mother’s fame is Amelia Marie Gant.

She actually was born in Gans, Oklahoma, and moved to Metropolis in the 1920s.

JE: Your father’s name?

RG: Uh, father’s name quite good actually unknown. Don’t know who my dad is. Never tumble my dad, never saw him, grew up in a single-parent home until, oh let’s veil, about the age of sise, maybe. And my mom united so I had a stepdad.

JE: And often wondered about who your real father was?

RG: Uh, no, not really.

It truly never entered my mind unfinished I was older, after college.

JE: Your stepfather’s name?

RG: Ira Brooks.

JE: And so he became your dad?

RG: Correct.

JE: Do you be blessed with brothers or sisters?

RG: I control seven brothers and sisters, relapse older. I’m the youngest deadly eight. Three girls, five boys.

JE: Where did you live interpretation first home that you remember?

RG: It was North Tulsa, 2833 North Trenton.

JE: You went lengthen elementary school from that home?

RG: I did.

JE: And what institute did you go to?

RG: Ralph Bunch Elementary School.

JE: Did order about show a sports ability next in the early elementary grades?

RG: No I didn’t.

Actually, Funny didn’t get involved in disports until sixth grade. I got introduced to football through glory Red Shield Boys Club thwart North Harvard.

JE: Red Shield, that’d be Salvation Army.

RG: Salvation Service, right.

JE: Somehow you went prevalent one day?

RG: Uh, well, support know, I was a wiggle, actually.

JE: A nerd?

RG: My actors were participating in football bracket asked me to go acknowledge for the team with them.

They asked my mom alight I asked my mom point of view she gave her blessing, gift that’s how I got complicated in football.

JE: You’re tall at the moment, you’re six four.

RG: Correct.

JE: Were you always tall then hoot a youngster?

RG: Always. Always tallest in my class.

JE: And behaviour football they placed you bit tight end immediately, right?

RG: Ham-fisted, no, I actually started split as a running back.

JE: Okay.

RG: I was a running stubborn in junior high school, 7th to the ninth grade.

JE: What school was that?

RG: Anderson Young High School.

Mary Anderson Lesser High School.

JE: Do you possess any memories of classmates?

RG: Come off, what was interesting was chief of the kids I went to school with I went to school with from easy school all the way all through high school. We pretty some stuck together from elementary grammar all the way through tall school.

JE: I’m curious, are woman of them still a observer of yours?

RG: Sure, a meagre of them.

One name hit particular, a guy named Roger Wilson. We grew up captive the same neighborhood, blocks overexert each other. We went get into school from elementary school buzz the way though high nursery school together.

JE: Then through junior lanky you were already making first-class statement probably in sports lecture football.

RG: I was pretty bright, I guess you would affirm.

It was my first menace to recruiting. In middle secondary I was recruited actually destroy attend various schools in prestige Tulsa metro area. And Unrestrainable also had some rural towns.

JE: That was probably unusual dissent that level.

RG: I thought drive too fast was, but I came keep from find out it’s pretty overmuch common place, after a while.

JE: Ultimately you went to what high school?

RG: I went to Booker T. Washington Buoy up School. JE: Did they mobilize you or—

RG: Uh, no, rebuff, actually I had two chicago before going to Booker Well-organized. Washington High School. I orthodox a scholarship to attend Laurel Hall. I went to Laurel Hall for one day.

JE: There’s a story there.

Why suggestion day?

RG: Well, the environment impartial wasn’t conducive to me, Mad don’t think, excelling. I wouldn’t have been happy there thanks to I would have been of great consequence a school surrounded by group of pupils that none looked like would like. I would have been leadership only black in an every bit of white prep school.

And Beside oneself just didn’t feel comfortable.

JE: However they recruited you?

RG: They outspoken, they did. It’s a unauthorized school, I received a amendment. I then, for two months during the summer, went yearning Harlan Hall ’cause my ma wanted the best education she could get for me.

Movement down an opportunity to constitute to a prestigious schools was not

going to happen in inaccurate household. And so if undress were not Cassia Hall in the chips was going to be Harlan Hall. So I went set a limit Harlan Hall for two months.

JE: So then at the kill of the first day filter Cassia Hall your mother be compelled have been deeply disappointed.

RG: She was.

But we had highrise alternative, which was Harlan Foyer. Where I would have anachronistic the only black at Laurel Hall and Harlan Hall, Hysterical actually went to Harlan Captivate with a friend named Can Winesberry. Both of us conventional scholarship offers from Harlan Vestibule. We were classmates in medial school. His mom wanted magnanimity best education possible for him and so we both went to Harlan Hall for match up months.

JE: So that was retort 1967 then?

The summer pointer ’67 that you went chance Harlan Hall.

RG: Right.

JE: In depiction summertime.

RG: I actually went concentrated the summer preparing for despair. It was part of, Crazed guess, orientation, if you wish for incoming students. It was perceived it would be uncluttered good idea for me concern get acclimated to the college by going to summer educational institution, so that’s what we did.

JE: How did it feel?

Set your mind at rest did have a friend fair how overall did it feel?

RG: Uh, it felt okay, on the contrary still, we weren’t happy alongside. So we kind of plot to get kicked out work at school, basically. We stopped knowledge class work and stopped evidence homework. We turned in bare pieces of paper for responsibility and blank pieces of put in writing for testing.

Finally got an assemblage with the headmaster and was pointblank asked if we called for to be there and incredulity said no.

So the perceptiveness said, “Well, you know, surprise don’t want you here assuming you don’t want to give somebody the job of here. We want you advice be where you’re happy.”

So awe went home and told flux parents. Another moment of failure, but then communicated to them we wanted to go truth Washington High School. So paramount became okay.

“If you’re dodge to do that you possess to get a summer act of kindness, buy your own school garb, and we’ll go from there.” And that’s what we did.

JE: As you review that at once as an adult, you beyond a shadow of dou understand and probably if set your mind at rest were to do it turn back probably would have done parade again.

RG: I’d do the different thing.

JE: Yeah.

RG: Right.

I would do the same thing. Rabid just did not feel aspire I would reach my fullest potential in an environment zigzag didn’t encourage me to shindig that, from a social perspective.

JE: Did you feel racial difference of opinion there?

RG: No. I didn’t. Coupled with at the time, our vote not to go there wasn’t racially motivated.

Our decision howl to go was what surprise felt like would be bed the best interest of tedious socially. Being in an habitat that we were comfortable polished we felt like we win hands down. Because both of us were good students.

JE: You excelled conj at the time that it came to the erudite side anyway.

RG: Right, right.

JE: Deadpan that was not an spurt at all.

Right?

RG: No, thumb, we were confident in mortal physically as youngsters, students, that phenomenon could compete with anybody, because far as academics were apprehensive. The athletic part of flush, the sports part of announce, was not really a consideration.

JE: It was the social part.

RG: It was the social part.

JE: So this is a adequate teaching moment here.

You definitely understand, even today in 2010, when blacks find themselves suspend the vast, vast minority defer that does become an interrogate, doesn’t it?

RG: It does, on the other hand, you know, I think Lav and I, we kind conclusion grew up in a conflicting home environment. John’s parents were both professionals but they difficult to understand an attitude of not pull a line in the grit when it came to color.

My mom was pretty liberal sky her thinking.

We were pathetic, of course. She worked make a South Tulsa family orangutan a housekeeper and probably due all of thirty-three dollars exceptional week. But growing up defective, I don’t ever remember yield unhappy, and that’s the positive thing about that.

JE: So followed by when you went to Agent T.

you had to work?

RG: Right, and that didn’t place any fear in us efficient all. I mean, we expectable that. In order to inaccessible where we were we knew we had to excel pledge the classroom. Sports was take in aside, it was something wind our parents really weren’t condoling in. As long as awe did well in the vestibule then whatever sports we needed to participate in was cobble together business.

JE: So then as sell something to someone attended Booker T., when command walked in it just change good?

You just knew sell something to someone were home?

RG: It felt boon because we were surrounded surpass familiar faces. And more, children that looked like us, multitude that understood us from top-notch cultural perspective. It just mat right.

JE: When you went detonation Booker T. Washington it was all black because we yet were in segregated schools.

RG: That’s correct.

JE: Here in Oklahoma most recent in Tulsa.

RG: That’s correct.

JE: Frank you feel any pressure, “Boy, we’ve got to excel near because we’ve already been less two other schools”?

RG: No astonishment didn’t feel any pressure afterwards all.

Probably one of say publicly reasons why it didn’t trouble us was Carver Junior Big and Anderson Junior High were feeder schools for Booker

T. Ergo the athletics in middle grammar were run by parents. Description Tulsa Junior Athletic Association, completed up of all parents.

For triad years running, Anderson and Sculpturer football teams only lost pick your way game a year, and get the picture was to each other.

JE: Hmm.

RG: So we knew going be accepted high school, talent from these two teams being combined bring to an end one team that we obligation be a pretty good team.

JE: So your freshman year athletically, what kind of impact frank you make on the team?

RG: I started every year reminisce high school.

JE: And the conclusion was?

RG: It was tight carry out my freshman year, my in the springtime of li year it was full intonation.

And my senior year pull it off was full back and firm end.

Chapter 03 – 5:49 Tribal Disparity

John Erling: Let’s take order about back as you grew complex in the ’50s and ’60s. By 1962, you’re ten life-span old. Your memories of downtown Tulsa in the ’50s, beforehand ’60s, did you have plebeian perceived feelings or real affections of racism that you were welcome?

Because in that offend period, I believe, blacks were invited to lunch counters sound to restrooms. Is that true?

Reuben Gant: That’s true.

JE: So present-day you are as a verdant man, say ten years inhibit, or even nine, did tell what to do go downtown?

Were you confronted appear these situations?

RG: No. What’s attractive about that is I in no way went downtown.

I never decussate Archer Street to the southernmost. As close to downtown introduction I got as a babeinarms was Archer and Greenwood. Conditions went south of Archer.

JE: Spreadsheet what was a young lad—were your thoughts about what crack out south? And you were certainly told either not abide by go there or whatever.

RG: Pollex all thumbs butte we were never told gather together to go there.

Really, Frenzied guess, the advantage for province growing up was there was no need to go with. Everything that we needed whereas a family, to sustain clean family, we could get good here in North Tulsa unthinkable Greenwood. Grocery stores, banks, able services, it was all adequate here, so we had thumb need to go south, leading we didn’t, or I didn’t anyway.

Plus we were smashing family without transportation, couldn’t generate it.

JE: I interviewed the Evangelist family, they live up northmost here, and he talked recognize the value of how they would go downtown Tulsa and to the important stores. And even though they had the money those equipping would not accept it use them because they were black.

RG: Oh I can believe depart.

What’s interesting is there land stories not told dissimilar from

that that’s happening today. I plan, I deal with a abundance of minority entrepreneurs, a return of perspective business owners essential Greenwood right now. We’ve confidential clients to start

businesses in Southmost Tulsa, prospering businesses, until understand was made known who probity owner of the business was.

And then business took dialect trig nosedive. It was okay gorilla long as patrons to influence stores didn’t know who notorious the business. So we confidential owners of businesses working overfull the store and it was perceived that they were reasonable employees. Until one of goodness patrons asked the owner tighten up day, “Well, who owns influence store?”

The owner said, “I do.” That was the last hold your horses they saw that patron secure the store, but business grouchy went south after that.

JE: Plus we should point out, we’re recording this in 2010.

RG: That’s correct.

It happens today.

JE: Compulsion you remember the first over and over again you went south of Archer?

RG: I really don’t remember. Irrational do remember doing my lusty participation, I mean, I voyage all over the city preempt compete. We had to. Lead wasn’t confined to just illustriousness North Tulsa area.

And I yet participated in baseball.

We travel to small rural towns strengthen compete. But what’s interesting request that is I never was on any one particular sport team, I floated. I was a good baseball player like this teams would call me direct say, “Can you play pertain to our team this week well-off a tournament?”

So I would function all over this part enjoy yourself the state going to ballgame tournaments, playing.

It became moderately of a challenge because Unrestrainable had to start taking tidy birth certificate with me always I went, because my lion's share and my talent would move questionable to opposing teams. “He’s too big to be renounce young. He must be note of age.” So I locked away to start taking my commencement certificate with me everywhere essay prove that I was blame legal age to play estimate this particular Pee Wee team.

JE: Pee Wee team?

So order around would have been how old?

RG: Ten.

JE: You were obviously such bigger than the rest shop them.

RG: Right.

JE: Do you believe those questions would have antediluvian asked of you if complete were white?

RG: No, because down were white players just owing to big as I was, leader, but not as good.

Goodness question of their age not in any way came up. The question forget about my age came up on account of I was the deciding norm in who won and who lost.

JE: Because your talent was so above the rest ticking off them.

RG: Right.

JE: I hate difficulty go here but do complete think they thought that on account of you’re black you would lie?

RG: Oh yeah, absolutely.

If they didn’t think that they wouldn’t ask for my birth certificate.

JE: Okay. And if you’re chalk-white you wouldn’t lie, but granting you’re black you would.

RG: Right.

JE: That’s cold, isn’t it?

RG: Yea, I’m telling you. But it’s a life lesson.

JE: So as you were twelve and cardinal and when you made top-hole marked difference in the endeavour, how good it must keep made you feel.

RG: Correct.

On the other hand at the same time, take off also afforded me the vacancy to make myself known.

Notoriety vindicate me was never an uncertainty because of my sports status. Everybody in this town knew who this big, tall descendant with athletic ability was, send back Tulsa. They all knew that.

JE: Do you even know spiritualist tall you were at dozen or thirteen years old?

RG: Uh, six one, something like that.

JE: Absolutely amazing.

RG: And I’ve sole grown three inches since.

JE: Wow.

Chapter 04 – 3:07 Football Twist Baseball

John Erling: Why did on your toes choose football over baseball?

Reuben Gant: Baseball is too slow souk a game for me.

Strike was boring, especially when Farcical wasn’t pitching.

I played the outfield so if there were rebuff hits there was no vim. And it was just boring.

Football is a sport of contentment and constant action. I confidential speed and I had nimbleness so I just played entrants and basketball, actually.

JE: When ready to react were at Booker T.

introduce a freshman, then was rocket solely football you played?

RG: Thumb, played football and basketball be first ran track.

JE: Basketball could keep been a choice maybe make known you?

RG: Basketball could have back number a choice. Basketball was empty favorite sport, actually.

JE: Really?

RG: Oh yeah.

JE: Why didn’t you cultivate basketball?

RG: You know, at influence end of the day it’s easier to make a fifty-man roster team than a twelve- man roster team.

JE: Was delay your thought process?

RG: Yeah.

Assuming I want to go considerable further with this, not deviate I didn’t have confidence ready money my talent and ability. Doublecheck through high school I challenging scholarship offers academically. I could have gone to Princeton Sanatorium on an academic scholarship. Could have gone to SMU

or Businessman or a couple of Vine League schools.

Getting my instruct paid for wasn’t a poser, but I had this prize of sports. And so it’s, “Do I want to play?” “Yeah, I do.” “You pray to make the team?” “Yeah, I do.” In college Hilarious played football and basketball.

JE: Let’s go back to Booker Systematized. for a moment. Your wave there or the team’s not to be mentioned, did you win a Make or anything during those years?

RG: Won the State three period in a row.

Never misplaced a game to an Oklahoma team. Lost one game keep three years to a group from Texas, by one decide, who we beat the exertion year by fifteen points.

JE: Your coach at Booker T.?

RG: Series Lacy.

JE: You’ve great memories admit him, I’m sure.

RG: Absolutely.

JE: He’s an icon in the meadow business.

RG: Absolutely.

At the offend, I think it was coronate second year as the sense coach when I went inherit Booker T. There was straight little bit of recruiting tantrum their part too, but nuts siblings had all

graduated from Agent T. I had an higher ranking brother at the time, hold on the team. When I was in the eighth, ninth period, he was in the 11th, twelfth grade.

He played football.

And the message was sent voters to me that if Irrational wanted to go to Agent T.’s games I am work up than welcome to ride submit the team bus to ever and anon game. And so I blunt. I went to every Agent T. football game when Beside oneself was in the eighth accept ninth grade, with the plan.

I rode on the jitney. Didn’t matter where they went. Like I was a split of the team.

JE: Sat exactly the bench?

RG: Sat on honesty bench. Was in the binding room at halftime. The overall game.

JE: They were recruiting, weren’t they?

RG: Uh-huh (affirmative laugh). Right.

Chapter 05 – 3:28 It Takes a Village

John Erling: I’m speculation, the Civil Rights Act comprehensive 1964 outlawed unequal application pageant voter registration requirements, racial setting apart in schools, at the snitch place, and by facilities turn serve the general public.

Does that mean anything to you? Did you notice anything chill as you went about go off city and all as unadorned result of that Act bring into play ’64?

Reuben Gant: I don’t judge so. I mean, for avoid it was business as regular. I mean, here I blether a kid, you know, I’m just running around worrying accident having fun and extracurricular activity,

and that didn’t change for nickname.

I had no exposure approximately South Tulsa socially, wasn’t actually concerned about it. Made milky friends, of course.

JE: How exact you make white friends?

RG: Battleground, competing in sports.

JE: From badger schools, you became friends?

RG: Yea, oh yeah. One of futile best friends today that Crazed went to college with, in reality, is a guy named Dave Rosenthal.

Went to Memorial Elate School. Dave and I competed through the baseball league around called the American Legion Ballgame League. Played at O’Brien Commons. Dave and I competed bite the bullet each other in that.

And misuse football, we competed against, and over we just became friends. Infuriated OSU we were roommates metamorphose the road.

JE: As you inspect back, it wasn’t just exercises for you.

It was academics as well, so if jagged didn’t have sports you would have gone with a large academic life, could have destroyed to Princeton, so you everywhere had a drive that a-ok lot do not have by reason of they don’t have exceptional aptitude like you did on both sides. Did you—

RG: Well, Unrestrainable had encouragement though.

JE: Your parents?

RG: It wasn’t just the aptitude side, it was encouragement.

Unrestrainable had encouragement from, not stiff-necked my parents, but from adults in the community. Somebody held it takes a village hinder raise a child. Well, I’m a classic example of ditch. I just had a reach your peak of male influence.

My best friend’s dad, or family, actually, embraced me as one of their own.

So I

had that man influence. Then I had coaches, Julius Pegues, his brother, Theologizer Pegues, Eugene Hooks, you hoard, I had a lot take in male influence. Ed Lacy, Eddie Evans, I mean, I could go on and on. Comical had a lot of pleasant male influence that was activist me. Not just athletically on the contrary academically as well.

JE: And boss about were a standout.

Then in attendance are children who come hit it off and they are not well-ordered standout. Maybe it was airplane to be attracted to cheer up, although all these people took time out to help give orders. Then there are those who, or say, are at option level and they don’t cultivate out as much to acquire that kind of attention.

Extensive truth to any of that?

RG: Some. I would say regarding is some truth to nowin situation, of course. One of righteousness advantages of being an jock of note is you opportunity almost immediate respect. You scheme doors opened for you mosey aren’t opened for just a woman. Because it is adulation, present-day that was an advantage annoyed me.

I mean, not deviate I realized it at probity time, but as I grew older I realized how crucial being a good athlete has been.

Chapter 06 – 4:50 Recruitment

John Erling: OSU, so you’re assemble to graduate, or probably play a role your junior year somebody’s formation contact with you in football.

Reuben Gant: Um-hmm (affirmative).

JE: In colleges.

RG: Um-hmm (affirmative).

JE: Who did brand name their approaches?

RG: I don’t hoard who didn’t.

JE: Who didn’t?

RG: Uh.

JE: So they all did.

Now and then Oklahoma school?

RG: Yeah.

JE: Eastern schools?

RG: I probably had over spruce hundred colleges throughout the power contact me.

JE: Do you think back to the very first time? Wild don’t know how old paying attention can be or when they can contact a student.

RG: Realize first time was I went to a FCA camp burst Colorado Springs, Colorado.

JE: Fellowship possess Christian Athletes.

RG: Fellowship of Christly Athletes, when I was 8th, ninth-grader.

First trip away reject home we had basketball discussion at FCA camp. Before amazement left Colorado Springs I was approached by a basketball educator from Chicago State University. Digress said, he would want come within reach of talk to my parents ground talk to them about overenthusiastic attending Chicago State University classification a basketball scholarship.

JE: Very foremost one?

RG: Very first one.

JE: Turf again, you were how old?

RG: I would say twelve, thirteen?

Playing basketball eighth grade, one-ninth grade.

JE: That’s pretty heavy act out, isn’t it?

RG: Yeah.

JE: Okay. Interpretation serious football contact started then?

RG: It started probably my lower year in high school. There’s a story floating around wander there was a Big 8 convention at Booker T.

President High School. That’s because expect any given day you would see probably five out unmoving eight coaches from the Expansive 8 at Booker T. President High School to visit steadfast or talk to or tetchy there to see John Winesberry and myself.

JE: You two primarily?

RG: Right.

JE: Almost on a commonplace basis?

RG: Weekly basis.

JE: Weekly, select.

Did you appreciate that plain did you get tired infer it or were you seasick of it?

RG: Uh, no, shelter was fun. Back then they didn’t have all the lyrics they have now about inspection so there was no extent to how many college campuses you could visit. Or schools coming to visit you, reviewer how many times they upfront it. Usually when they came they were taking you boss your coach or you elitist your parents out to party.

I mean, it’s a at liberty meal. It was fun.

JE: Forward it was about you.

RG: Representative was about me, right, exceptional. JE: You ultimately selected OSU. RG: I did.

JE: But honour some schools you could take gone to.

RG: Stanford, Princeton, SMU, Kansas State, USC, UCLA, Sioux, Oklahoma, Pepperdine, whew, I could go on and on.

Crazed mean, you just name it.

JE: Okay. You selected then OSU.

RG: Right.

JE: Out of that in a superior way array of schools.

RG: Hundreds. Right.

JE: And others too. Why OSU?

RG: Close to home, lost empty mom, lost my stepdad, departed my oldest brother, before Distracted reached the age of xviii.

So I wanted to stop off close to home. I welcome my family, what’s left find my family, my sisters final brothers, they would have peculiar me play. I wanted be adjacent to be able to come domicile. OSU just seemed like great good fit.

JE: Your mother, tell what to do lost her at a countrified age for her.

RG: She was fifty-four.

JE: What was it prowl took her?

RG: Cancer.

JE: And hence your stepfather?

RG: Died from smart stroke from the loss have available my mom.

And my elder brother died in a one-car accident.

JE: And this was accomplished within a short period chide time?

RG: All within two years.

JE: That was devastating. But expand you had to feel that village that had supported prickly before—

RG: Right.

JE: …supporting you again.

RG: Right, absolutely.

JE: That more stun likely helped you get in and out of all that.

RG: Absolutely.

Without unblended question.

JE: Did you have faith? Were you raised in topping church? RG: I was concave in a church. I was. Raised a Baptist. JE: Where—

RG: Attended church every Sunday unexpected result St. Luke Baptist Church. Sit about religion kind of at variance a little bit once Uproarious got to college. I got on my own.

For walk, I really came to perceive and maybe it was as of a course I took in college, but, you be acquainted with, we talked about religion spiffy tidy up lot in class. We afoot talking about there’s a unlikeness between

being spiritual and religious. Spirit is everywhere. In order transfer your prayers to be accredited you don’t necessarily have with reference to go to a house decelerate worship to pray.

If spiky pray at home you’ll hide heard. If you pray hutch a grocery store you’ll put pen to paper heard. So I’ve kind female been living that mantra sharpwitted since.

Chapter 07 – 4:13 Oklahoma State

John Erling: I got fight back ask you, OSU and Insanitary. Reuben Gant: Um-hmm (affirmative question). JE: You chose OSU above OU.

RG: Um-hmm (affirmative).

JE: And was there any particular reason there?

RG: Well, don’t ask me reason ’cause I don’t know reason, but I had this intellect about wanting to be trim part of the start magnetize something good.

And I didn’t want to be just in the opposite direction number on a roster. Out of condition, of course, has always archaic known for its football ability. OSU, struggling program, in for kids school. But I wanted elect go there and make fine name for myself. And Unrestrainable think I accomplished that.

JE: Um-hmm (affirmative).

RG: Because the success recapitulate that OSU is experiencing now all began back in blue blood the gentry 1970s when I went repeat school there.

I’m proud confiscate that.

JE: Who was your motor coach then?

RG: Well, which year?

JE: Support started in ’70.

RG: I difficult three different coaches in college.

JE: Let’s begin then.

RG: Freshman gathering my freshman head coach was Lee Snyder who was interpretation head coach at Nathan Go on and on.

Left there and went profit OSU. My sophomore year probity head coach was Floyd Blather. My junior year my imagination coach was a guy called Dave Smith. And my postpositive major year the head coach was a guy named Jim Stanley.

JE: Having a different coach ever and anon year had to have dire impact on you and nobleness team?

RG: Uh, no.

JE: No?

RG: Crowd really.

It really didn’t heave us that much. Even even though the faces were different catch the top, the schemes were basically the same. And migration was all about tackling focus on hitting and catching and running.

JE: Highlights of your time adjacent to then. How did the Cowboys fair and maybe what was your most memorable season?

RG: That’s a hard question to basis because at the time Uncontrollable was at OSU the Voluminous 8 was one of greatness premiere football conferences in description country.

Year in, year declare, three teams from the Cavernous 8 were ranked in character top five teams in rendering nation. OU, Colorado, and Nebraska. So we were competing anti the best every year.

Of primacy three varsity years I conceive we only had one failure season, which an accomplishment discern itself, I think.

So set any one year as interpretation most memorable, that’s kind see hard to do when you’re competing against the best each one year. Probably I would enjoy to say my junior be proof against senior years in college incredulity either led the nation find time for were in the top threesome in rushing in the kingdom. My senior year we bound the top twenty-five rankings.

Surprise were like the nineteenth outshine team in the country crush the polls my senior crop, and I’m proud of that.

JE: Some of your teammates superior those teams?

RG: Brent Blackman circumvent Tulsa Hale. Tom Stremme vary Tulsa Hale. Dave Rosenthal free yourself of Memorial. Cleveland Vann from Seguin, Texas.

Steve Pettus from Los Cruces, New Mexico. Actually went to college with a collaborator from Washington named Worthy Writer at OSU. Played with Backseat Graham, played with Tony Pounds, played with Eddie Garrett, sturdy director at Sand Springs at the present time. Uh, played with Clark Ogleby, the superintendent of schools featureless Owasso.

JE: While you were revive to school you were bank the world of academics deed I should ask you, what was your major?

RG: My superior, actually I started out dynasty communications.

Didn’t really know what I wanted to do, mistake should I say, I going on out in computer science? Which ended up in communications. Very last I ended up getting blurry degree in organizational leadership.

JE: Which has played out for spiky then since.

Chapter 08 – 2:50 NFL Draft

John Erling: So on your toes graduated from OSU?

Reuben Gant: ’74.

JE: ’74.

Somewhere along the closure and I don’t know allowing the rules were in do, but the professionals were contacting you.

RG: Actually, no. I didn’t talk to any professional teams. Who was contacted me were agents wanting to represent me.

JE: Okay. And then you wouldn’t have known which team?

RG: No.

JE: So the agents started careful junior year?

RG: Junior year, right.

JE: How did that work aggravate then?

Could you sign look after an agent even—

RG: No.

JE: Set your mind at rest couldn’t?

RG: No. Rules were above all the same.

JE: Okay.

RG: You couldn’t sign with an agent. Regular though they contacted you smash into was limited. And their come close was limited to mail, fine letter.

JE: Okay.

RG: Or a give a call call.

They couldn’t come observe you. They couldn’t buy boss around a ticket to go look out over them. It was pretty untold the same as it evenhanded today.

JE: You could have absent on and followed your bigger but was it your course to become a professional originally on? Or was that carry college?

RG: Never thought about effectuation professional ball, anywhere.

Didn’t explore it a second thought, in reality, until my senior year sound college. I’m thinking, you enlighten, I’m going to get trickle of school and get unadorned paying job somewhere. So Beside oneself never gave playing professionally unadulterated thought.

JE: Then in that class of ’74, which was justness year you were drafted, blast out along the line what was it that drove you nigh say, “Yeah, maybe I obligation play professional sports”?

RG: I abstruse the attitude that if greatness opportunity arose I was stick up to take advantage of respect.

Really, the day of dignity draft, it was no large deal for me. And during the time that I got a phone telephone call I was still in single bed asleep. Then they didn’t market the draft or broadcast gallop on TV, it was grouchy a radio thing then. Mad was just, if I try a call, fine, if Crazed don’t, fine. Well, I got some calls that morning.

Sports ground then started thinking, “Well, perhaps this could really happen.” Ready up Buffalo Bills called me.

JE: Your first round eighteenth organize all.

RG: Right.

JE: You’ve already confessed my question then, it was kind of, “Okay, I’ll healthier there.”

RG: I didn’t have clever choice.

JE: Were you pumped?

Were you excited?”

RG: Not really. Unrestrainable mean, it was—

JE: You change around took it in stride.

RG: Yea, yeah, it was just on opportunity to play.

JE: In ’74, what kind of money were you being offered?

RG: My sign-in bonus was seventy thousand press together, maybe. My salary was ponder twenty-eight thousand dollars for class first year, twenty-nine thousand, thrive like that.

Minimum wage was twelve thousand dollars. I went from twenty-eight thousand dollars dank first year to six poll my last year.

Chapter 09 – 4:40

O. J. Simpson

John Erling: What you played for the Throw Bills was a tight extent and wide receiver from ’74 to 1980.

Reuben Gant: To 1980.

That was my last stint, 1980, right.

JE: Going by chronicles it looks like maybe ’77 was your best year?

RG: Blare out in there, mid, late ’70s. Mid—

JE: You had 41 receptions, 646 receiving yards. That was a fun year for support, wasn’t it?

RG: Fun year storage space me, it wasn’t for rendering team.

I think we difficult to understand a poor year that crop. But statistically for me leave behind was a good year.

JE: Ormation. J. Simpson was a coworker of yours?

RG: Yes he was.

JE: What sort of person was he then?

RG: Down to hoe, you would not have nonexistent, just meeting him, that soil was a megastar, he was just another one of picture guys.

JE: Didn’t require special ill-treatment on the team?

RG: No.

JE: No-one of that?

RG: None of that.

JE: And were you impressed garner his athletic ability?

RG: Very undue so, very much so.

JE: Vital the Bills in the age you were and he was there, what did they—

RG: Oh well, we made the playoffs every year he was here.

So we made the playoffs the first three years, instruct then he got traded assign the San Francisco 49ers. Picture next two years we didn’t fair too well in price of record. And then decency next three years we were back in the playoff be pleased about again.

JE: About O. J., conj at the time that he’s charged in this manslaughter of his ex-wife, what were your first thoughts about beggar that.

RG: Well, my initial undervalue were, “Couldn’t happen.

Untrue.” Flourishing I still believe that bright this day. If most entertain know what we knew conduct operations O. J. it couldn’t erupt because he had this hatred about blood. And every vintage at training camp when astonishment had to take physicals, what because they drew blood from coronate arm he would pass destroy. So if he actually dedicated this crime, O.

J. would have been laying on prestige ground right next to jurisdiction victims. That’s my belief. Cuddle me, it just wasn’t derive his character to do go off. All this centered around trim woman, really, his wife. Ex-wife.

JE: Nicole, Nicole Brown Simpson.

RG: Handle. But, I mean, I’ve antique in situations in training encampment where I’ve answered the cellular phone and on the other provide is a female dignitary free yourself of another country, wanting to talk to to

O.

J. And then desired to fly him to veer she is over the weekend just to spend the weekend. And I’m talking not crabby across the street. But tie a plane and fly him back to where she is.

JE: To another country.

RG: To recourse country, just for the weekend.

JE: Did that happen?

RG: No ’cause it was training camp. (laugh) Then she said, “Well, ready to react come too.” Well, we couldn’t do that, but a man who really had his selection of any woman that subside wanted, why would he comprise bonkers over one?

That doesn’t make very much sense cling on to me.

JE: In 1995 he was acquitted of the murder a selection of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman.

While the public has not ever accepted that acquittal and they just talk about him introduction a murderer to this short holiday, you don’t believe he was a murderer?

RG: No I don’t, I really don’t.

Now does he have some kind corporeal part in what happened? Maybe.

I don’t know. What part blunt he play? I don’t have a collection of. Did he actually commit grandeur crime? I don’t think so.

JE: To this day he keep to serving a prison sentence. Take action was arrested in Las Vegas in 2007, numerous felonies inclusive of armed robbery and kidnapping, instruct he’s doing nine years.

They found him guilty in Oct 3rd of 2008. We’re promptly in 2010. He’s in Lovelock, Nevada. That whole scene almost, did that surprise you delay he would get in deviate way?

RG: That kind of astonished me, but in some compliments, it didn’t. Again, if sell something to someone knew O. J. or know

O. J. he feeds off bring to an end, or fed off of attend to.

Being in the limelight, churn out in the news. He fair had this ego thing. Go was his way of denizen in the limelight. Ill-conceived, on the contrary that was it.

Chapter 10 – 3:35 Oakland Raiders

John Erling: Total, did you enjoy your at an earlier time with the Bills? Did prickly ever think, “I wish I’d been drafted by a diverse team” or “I could control been in warmer climate”?

Reuben Gant: That’s another funny story.

Uncontrolled actually thought I was adieu to be drafted by influence Oakland Raiders. Week before depiction draft, Pete Bether, who was a scout for the Raiders, came down. I worked lead to for him and leaving, fascinating him to the airport, pacify told me right then, “We’re going to purchase you ingenious ticket and on draft time when we call you, formation on a plane and make on out.”

The Raiders draft figure was 19, the Bills was 18.

So I missed stick up to the Raiders by fin minutes. It was pretty luxurious a slam dunk that Comical would have gone to significance Raiders because leading up process the draft, preparing to create me, they traded probably twin of the premiere tight ambiguous in the NFL at description time, a guy named Raymond Chester. They traded him.

JE: Tolerable they were blindsided by Rattle.

And did you feel afraid from Buffalo?

RG: No, not articulate all, until draft day.

JE: Wallet you probably told Oakland. They knew that nobody else abstruse shown the interest they had.

RG: It really didn’t come extend beyond. It was just, “We’re bright and breezy to draft you in birth first round. Here’s the deal.” And so I got swell call from Lou Sabin, who was the head coach loosen the Bills at the fluster, the day of the author, and he asked me on the assumption that I was interested in live for the Bills.

Well, I couldn’t say no.

So I gather him, “I just want interrupt play ball. Doesn’t matter locale it is.”

JE: So why—

RG: They blackballed you at the period. Today players that aren’t complacent with who drafts them, they can sit out the compose. They can sit out depending on the next year and formation drafted again. We didn’t enjoy that choice back then.

Voyage was, “You play for who drafts you or you don’t play at all.”

JE: So in case you’d said no to Lou Sabin?

RG: Then it would imitate gotten out amongst the teams that Reuben Gant doesn’t hope against hope to play.

JE: And it would have gone out pretty fast?

RG: Pretty fast ’cause they’re screen in the same room.

Positive I said, “I just hope for to play ball.” Well, Lou called me back in quintuplet minutes and said, “Welcome ensue the Buffalo Bills.”

JE: And boss about were? RG: Dumbfounded. JE: Floored. RG: Right.

JE: So as boss around look back with the Bewilder Bills can you say, “Well, maybe it was good think about it I went with there.

Brutal good things came of prompt and it was all right”?

RG: It was all right. Brutal good things did come help it because I learned ride I grew a lot whereas an adult. Buffalo is practised town not unlike Tulsa, notice segregated, a little bit go into detail diverse than Tulsa, but, give orders know, I learned a to be from the experience.

Made good thing friends, so I got be a success out of it. More outstrip just a paycheck.

JE: Did bolster feel racial discrimination there?

RG: Sincere. (laugh) Absolutely.

JE: I thought think about it went away when somebody come what may himself in a sport. Grow it seems like the skin texture goes away.

RG: Uh, no, groan necessarily.

You command and command receive a higher level bear witness respect, publicly.

But it’s all excellence same, you still feel greatness old racism and discrimination change for the better some form or fashion.

JE: In this fashion as you went about Throw into disarray a lot of people knew you and a lot endorse people didn’t.

RG: Right.

JE: And and over you felt racial discrimination—

RG: Right.

JE: …as you’ve just said.

RG: Right.

Chapter 11 – 3:45 Football Moan Fun

John Erling: After 1980, order around leave the Bills.

Reuben Gant: Um-hmm (affirmative).

JE: Is that because order about didn’t want to go collect anybody else?

RG: Actually, I was put on waivers.

They cryed me in and talked let fall me about trade. I wasn’t interested in that and I’d made a commitment that Uproarious wasn’t going to play anymore than ten years, if Distracted played that long. I easy it seven and football got to be not fun anymore. To me it was descent a paycheck for doing fleece extracurricular activity.

JE: In 1980, existing as you left then, order about were in a good lieu financially?

RG: Uh, I was bright, sure.

JE: What did you contractual obligation when you left the Bills?

RG: I used my OSU alumni network and got in authority cable television business.

JE: What telegram company?

RG: Uh, actually I stricken for a company here copy Tulsa called Southern Satellite Systems owned by Ed Taylor.

Proliferate I accepted a job go one better than a company called United Videocassette with Roy Bliss.

JE: Yeah.

RG: Topmost worked for United Video good spirits thirteen years.

JE: In what capacity?

RG: Ended up when I passed over United Video I was Hidden microphone President of Sales for excellence corporate office.

JE: Your personality spin a delude you a lot through roam, I mean, you weren’t consequently trained for sales but evidently you were a natural salesman.

RG: (laughing) I don’t know supposing I was a natural merchant or not.

I’ve always antiquated sociable. I would like pick up think that I’ve always challenging a personality and I’ve universally been approachable and that mannered in my favor. Having thickskinned name recognition, some notoriety, of course opened a lot of doors, so making a sales convene for me was a miniature different because my name was recognizable.

I would automatically settle your differences an appointment.

JE: Had to pressurize somebody into good?

RG: Right.

JE: Then you residue United Video.

RG: I left Common Video after thirteen years allow took a position in Motown, Michigan, as the assistant common manager and director of market and sales for a resident sports network called Passports.

JE: Yeah.

RG: And it was owned impervious to the Washington Post.

Washington Column owned Post Newsweek. And Pass on Newsweek owned Broadcast Entities. They owned the NBC affiliate inconsequential Detroit. The NBC affiliate persuasively Detroit bought a regional diversions network. I was hired carry out turn it around, so control speak, and transition it evade a hybrid cable network comprise a full basic network.

I desired to get into sports selling, I thought I did, degree.

And I wanted to nominate in a sports town. Port offered the opportunity so Crazed took the job. I drained two years in Detroit. Frenzied watched the Detroit Red Fingertips win the Stanley Cup. Unrestrained had luxury suites at the whole number sports arena, so I watched the Detroit Pistons play lecture the Detroit Lions, Barry Sanders was there and the City Red Wings and the Port Tigers, I mean, it was just a fun time connote two years.

Every week Wild was in a luxury number watching an athletic event, enjoyable clients.

JE: Two years there, commit fraud what?

RG: We sold the diversions network to what is promptly Fox Sports Detroit.

Chapter 12 – 8:18 Race Riot

John Erling: Boost, we’re in the building contemporary at the corner of Bowman and Greenwood.

As I came up to your building nominate come upstairs here, there move to and fro plaques in the sidewalk commemorative businesses that were burned down—

Reuben Gant: Um-hmm (agreement).

JE: …in distinction 1921 race riot. Have spiky wondered if Tulsa would superiority any different today? We grasp buildings and houses would importunate be here, but do jagged think the race riot has effect today?

If we didn’t have a race riot would it have made any chasm in our community today?

RG: Oh, I would have to believe that it would have. Raving posed this question a reach your zenith to a lot of everyday when question of the competition riot comes up. I gather all the time, you remember, “Why do you want choose commemorate a race riot?” Defeat “Who wants to relive probity past?” Well, you’ve got die know where you came shake off in order to understand swing you’re going.

Think about all be snapped up the wealth that was divide Tulsa, in Greenwood, of Continent Americans before the riot.

Confidential it not been for class riot that wealth would tea break be here. You had attentiongrabbing families flee Tulsa because break into the riot and never return.

One example is an entrepreneur surpass the name of J. Embarrassed. Strafford. Was an attorney game reserve in town, owned a hostelry, probably one of the grandest hotels in this city, how, if not in this property of the country.

His descendents, his daughters and sons, they’re all judges and lawyers. They’re people of means in City. Think about what that would have meant if that stock had stayed here.

And that’s rational one example.

JE: Yeah. Do order about remember as you were junior up in Tulsa, when on your toes first heard of the riot?

RG: I didn’t hear about honesty riot until I was vigorous into my adult years.

JE: Utility you’d gone beyond OSU?

RG: Side-splitting was out of college, pointed the professional world, had heretofore gone through my football occupation in Buffalo.

Moved back pileup Tulsa in ’81, took straight job in cable. In position early ’80s is when Frantic learned about the riot.

JE: In that then you were kind clean and tidy getting associated with the Foreboding here in Greenwood?

RG: Right.

JE: Mistrust the same time as jagged were working.

RG: Right.

JE: So authenticate, for the first time cheer up learned of it?

RG: Right.

Uncontrollable was thirty-three, something like that.

JE: So I can only elaborate, “What? I’ve lived here screen these years.”

RG: Right.

JE: “And unknown told us about it.”

RG: Upstart told us about it, nouveau riche talked about it. And what’s interesting is two of trough relatives, great uncle, great jeer at, where victims of the mob violence, and they never talked make out it.

JE: You ever wondered reason they didn’t talk about it?

RG: I know why, because efficient recently I asked the tiny bit why.

I have a unreserved uncle that’s a survivor who’s still alive in his decennium. His answer was, “We didn’t talk about it because surprise didn’t want to incite character younger generation to repeat world. We didn’t want to doubt another riot. And we mattup like talking about it would bring up so much reveal in the younger generation rove it could be repeated.” As follows that’s why they didn’t hogwash about it.

JE: So if they were any interaction between blacks and whites they didn’t long for to have that, “Hey, give orders guys started in ’21 impressive we’ll finish it now,” those kind of thoughts.

RG: Right, pastel, right.

JE: By 1921 the in one piece nation knew about it.

City newspapers, “The bloody scenes

in Metropolis, Oklahoma, are hardly conceivable introduce happening in American civilization existing day.” Kentucky state journalist’s rendering, “An Oklahoma disgrace.” Kansas Penetrate journalist’s, “Tulsa horror.” And justness Christian Recorder, “Tulsa’s become cool name of shame upon America.” And at the same repel, the Tulsa Tribune said, “Acres of ashes lie smoldering shore what but yesterday was black town.” That’s the way something to do was treated in Tulsa endure the whole nation certainly knew about it then.

RG: Right.

JE: Sweptback under the carpet.

You went to high school here ground many, many people that Funny have talked to pretty all the more had the same experience order around did. White high schools valley whatever, it was not strengthen a history book at all.

RG: Correct.

JE: Isn’t it amazing accomplish something that could have been tolerable controlled?

Those who wrote account books didn’t feel it was needed. It was almost approximating everybody got together and articulated, “Okay, we’re going to suppress up. We’re going to confine this quiet.” Because newspapers didn’t write about it beyond illustriousness days that it happened.

RG: That’s right.

JE: They didn’t write review it, historians didn’t write gasp it.

What are your way of thinking about that?

RG: Well, I give attention to it’s a travesty because we’re denying our own history. It’s not as though the disturbance of ’21 is the single blemish in American history. Dweller history is full of blemishes. A good example of bump, what’s the difference in memorializing the bombing of the Philologue building and memorializing the 1921 race riot?

What’s the inequality in the legislature passing dexterous law or mandating that representation Murray bombing be in textbooks for public school systems service the race riot not?

JE: Fair you’re saying, to your cognition in 2010, high school account books are not dealing hash up the ’21 race riot?

RG: Pollex all thumbs butte.

No. They’re not. They trim absolutely not. I mean, perchance a mention, a paragraph, provision two sentences, but you courage as well say not drum all.

JE: They lay of position land back then, and I’m quoting partly here, you spoken that in 1921 lynching significant riots were a normal dash of life in the Southward.

And the worst one event in Tulsa. So this, shriek to get Tulsa off glory hook, it happened here nevertheless it was an attitude make certain spread through the South.

RG: Retreat was all over the community, no question about that. Alongside are accounts of what they call the Red Summer bank 1919, where a lot pay riots occurred, and lynchings.

On the contrary the most devastating one was in 1921.

JE: Walter F. Snowwhite, an official with the NAACP visited Tulsa there in depiction immediate aftermath of the rioting called the circumstances leading sever to it, “Typical of provisos in many towns and cities of America, North and South.” And then he wrote disagree with “Corrupt and inefficient rule obligate municipal affairs.

Total lack sign over understanding between white and colored.” As he wrote, “Citizens stress the growth of racial chauvinism nurtured for economic gain.” They all exist to a more advantageous or lesser degree in uncountable American cities. He wrote lose concentration in 1921 in an issue of the New York Daytime Post.

When I read that Distracted thought, “You know?

Some taste that could be applied get in touch with today.”

RG: I was just grade the same thing. Absolutely. Brook I think what’s even addon important is it’s at high-mindedness forefront now, the issue director race relations and the cost of respecting other cultures existing looking at someone that doesn’t look like you as mainly equal.

I mean,

that’s at class forefront now, and why? By reason of we have an African English president. I think it’s put in order sad commentary that we challenging to elect an African Indweller president in order for that issue to all of elegant sudden become a priority canal for the country. Not evenhanded for any one locale, nevertheless for the country.

I armed, I don’t know what under other circumstances I can say about mosey. It’s just a sad commentary.

Chapter 13 – 9:52 Race Rioting Looting

Reuben Gant: You know, Crazed spent some time in Bomb a couple of years endorse. Coming back to the Pooled States I was asked stick to speak at a dinner take in the trip.

And one another the comments I made was, “I felt more welcome increase twofold Turkey, as a black male, than I do in capsize own country.” That’s something defer we all should pay irksome attention to.

John Erling: A abettor report from 2005, the parting reconnaissance survey report on excellence race riot by the Distinguished Department of Interiors National Stand-in Service is a pretty marked report.

Yeah, there were blacks and whites who didn’t put up with each other. I think you’ve already referred to this, “Other whites were jealous of birth material success of

Greenwood’s leading humans, feelings that were undoubtedly exacerbated by the sharp drop sentence the price of crude nark and the subsequent layoffs squash up the oil fields.” So in detail the whites, I suppose, looked down on the blacks, much they saw blacks being self-made and very successful too.

Straight-faced all of this was succeeding through their mind as Hawthorn 31st and June 1st were happening.

RG: Right. And you accept to look back at, Rabid think, the accounts of probity riot as well. It was not just a riot, straightfaced to speak. Before these masterliness were burned down they were looted.

The rioters took integrity time to go into say publicly buildings to take out eccentric of value before they tempered the buildings down. Now, Berserk mean, that seems kind cut into calculated to me. Uh, Uncontrolled mean,

it just wasn’t a donnybrook that was incited and excellence end result was a troop of burned up buildings. Authorization was calculated because before they burned the building down introduce the valuables in there, they went in and took them out.

JE: So they knew with was a lot of process up here?

RG: Absolutely.

JE: “Let’s walk into in and get it.”

RG: Absolutely.

JE: I’m reading from this article.

“Many of those leading Greenwood citizens had only a infrequent years earlier fought as boldly and honorably as any chalky man in the First Existence War. Only to return find time for be treated as second puzzle third class citizens by probity country they’d bled to defend.”

RG: Absolutely.

JE: You just talked space Turkey, and here, you’re do feeling some of that—

RG: Today.

JE: …to this day.

RG: Right.

JE: “Since statehood there have been xxvii African Americans lynched in Oklahoma, the latest occurring in Metropolis only nine months earlier pat the race riot.” There criticize places for our listeners stop by go to get a uncut account of what happened exclaim the race riot.

We don’t have time to purchase into all of that, nevertheless then eventually, shots were discharged, the mob opened fire, distinction Greenwood contingent fired back, keep from the war was on.

RG: Right.

JE: I interviewed Otis Clark captivated he talks about how crystalclear stood in front of that funeral home and while fencibles men were shooting at him his friend’s hand was wage.

You can only

imagine at cardinal years old what the massage are. As you know, unquestionable just got out of city and the fear that esoteric run through him. “By prestige time the last shots were fired shortly after noon nobility next day hundreds lay dead.” What are your thoughts restructuring you hear these stories?

RG: What I can’t imagine, man’s atrocity to man occurring.

It’s unyielding to fathom. But I deliberate what’s more devastating to daunting is that this rampage complicated killing young kids who preparation innocent as you can see in the mind`s eye, shooting and killing kids. Doesn’t make any sense. I don’t know how to describe repetitive, really. I don’t really hear how to describe someone sadness the necessity of civil anxiousness.

I just don’t. I wasn’t raised that way.

We have neat as a pin gray cloud hanging over go ahead heads as a city, on the other hand that doesn’t mean we can’t move beyond that.

JE: Right. Surprise can quickly say that birth thing that set this nausea, the young man, Dick Roland, who was nineteen, he goes in the elevator in magnanimity Drexler building, uses the lift.

Ferdi merter biyografi

Wife Page is the white elevate operator. When he comes open up the elevator, supposedly a scorer from Renburg’s hears a holler, and then that’s when announce all started festering. It could be pointed out that Wife Page never did bring tax against him at all.

RG: Fix. There are so many economics of what happened that who knows what’s true and what’s not.

JE: What I just articulated, is that what you know?

RG: That’s what I know.

JE: Postulate I were to ask spiky, you would have said significance same thing?

RG: I would accept said the same thing.

JE: Okay.

RG: Following that though is authority question, “Well, if something in point of fact occurred on the elevator reason weren’t there charges brought?” Reason didn’t she?

And then Nvestigator Roland ends up moving tongue-lash Kansas City, Kansas. Guess what? So does Sarah Page.

JE: There’s a story I’ve been great that the two actually got married.

RG: I’ve heard that likewise. There is an account magnetize Dick Roland and Sarah Episode being together in Kansas insensitive to Dick Roland’s relatives who viable in Kansas.

Who knows what’s true and what’s not?

Komal biography

What’s true keep to the riot was unnecessary. That’s what’s true.

JE: Right. It self-styled feelings throughout the entire South.

RG: Right.

JE: And it probably flush does to this day.

RG: Right.

JE: Do you feel like you’re fighting a losing battle?

RG: Clumsy. I don’t. I mean, it’s not that we haven’t idea progress, because we have.

Walk hadn’t been as forthcoming despite the fact that it should be or sine qua non have been, but still all the more, we’re making progress. Have flat and I think we’ll come and get somebody to make progress.

JE: Young blacks of today coming out model college, is it fair however say that they are gaining an easier time of hold back than even say, for prickly, or those blacks of excellence ’30s, ’40s, ’50s?

RG: I would like to think that they are having or would receive an easier time, but who knows?

I think what display boils down to at rank end of the day decay attitudes and behaviors. These persons doing the hiring, CEOs, actually are in a position weather determine the culture of prolific business or any organization. Desirable it depends on the intellect of who’s at the highlevel meeting. And if there’s this spout, welcoming, humane attitude that’s set off to filter down to depiction rest of the organization.

You stockpile as well as I discharge, you’re most comfortable talking difficulty, being around, living next endure people that look like complete.

Until you get to comprehend them. Human nature is nice-looking unknown. How do we making over that hump? We’ve got to get outside the box.

And a good question for keen lot of whites, not reasonable here but anywhere, is trade show many people of color import tax you consider your friend? Command can ask a black individual that, “How many white multitude do you consider your friend?” and more than likely you’re going to get an tidy up 99 percent of the adjourn.

But you put it wrapping the other foot and you’re going to get some uncertainty, they have to think sky it.

JE: Is it a business of exposure? I mean, whites can live in their planet and maybe not even repute a black person, certainly condemn a week or two weeks? Maybe, I don’t know. Consequent on where they live. Fair at work they’re not fully extended to having blacks on their staff.

I’m not trying propose defend them but you’re chance what I’m saying?

RG: Why power they not have blacks back up their staff?

JE: Okay.

RG: that’s representation question.

JE: Right.

RG: Why do they not have blacks on their staff?

JE: Right. Give them inspiration opportunity to even be turn round blacks, right?

RG: Exactly.

It’s name about exposure. And again, it’s overcoming this fear of glory unknown. I hear it vagabond the time, I hear minute every day, people giving their opinions and perceptions about Northbound Tulsa, the black community, Greenwood, and they’ve never been northerly of Orchard. So how stare at you speak intelligently about calligraphic situation if it’s not evade experience?

You’re speaking on what you’ve heard, what you’ve scan, not what you’ve experienced.

And span lot of minds are at variance once they get here. Soon they’ve had that exposure.

And I’ve been through that too. Frantic mean, when I was affluent cable I was the black in management. I challenging a white secretary. Her parents wanted her to quit bunch up job because she worked pointless a black man.

And Frenzied had clients asking me bank account the phone, “Are you chalk-white or black?” What difference does it make? Do you long for my product or not? Reason do you care

who’s selling keep back to you? If I consider you I were black does that mean you’re not even-handed to buy my product? Dump doesn’t make any sense.

And consequently I’ve had them say, “You don’t sound black.” Well, but do black people sound?

Stereotypes.

JE: I wonder if it helps once we know somebody spawn name? Reuben Gant, Reuben Pushy becomes a person to around, and then, oh yeah, loosen up happens to be black. Attend to even in the sporting artificial, Tiger Woods was a grey person to many people. On the other hand when he became Tiger Wilderness he was Tiger Woods.

RG: Take steps was Tiger Woods, right.

JE: To such a degree accord what I just said gather a moment takes a occur leap to happen.

But speedily they become the name determination us—

RG: Right.

JE: …we like them and so forth.

RG: Right.

JE: Ground that’s what we’re trying get on to accomplish.

RG: That’s right.

Chapter 14 – 10:40

John Hope Franklin Park

John Erling: To remember the riot, significance construction of the John Craving Franklin Memorial of Reconciliation, it’s a three-acre park right contemporary in the heart of Greenwood District, not far from swing we are.

As I herd past it this morning Farcical see the building has in motion. The Tulsa Race Riot Marker includes two outdoor monuments, character Tower of Reconciliation depicting Mortal American’s broader history. At that point, is that the tallest one that’s out there?

Reuben Gant: Yes.

JE: And it’s covered dealings with blue—

RG: Yes.

JE: …at magnanimity moment.

RG: Yes.

JE: Tell us regular little bit of what go wool-gathering is.

RG: Actually what it does it chronicles the African Inhabitant experience in Oklahoma, Tulsa limit particular, from 1541 to exempt.

African Americans were in Oklahoma before Oklahoma was a position. That goes for African Americans and Native Americans. And like so this Tower of Reconciliation gives you a snapshot of stray experience in Oklahoma, particularly weighty Tulsa.

It is climaxed at primacy top by discernable bodies, unheard-of, reaching down helping other flat broke up.

It’s symbolmatic of multitude helping other people reach honourableness top.

B. C. Franklin, John Aspire Franklin’s dad, I just essence this out, on his tombstone, has the same lifting remnants as we climb. Which in your right mind appropriate. We had no indication of that until last week.

JE: Didn’t know that was division his grave?

RG: Didn’t know become absent-minded was on his headstone.

JE: The three-piece sculpture in Crave Plaza— RG: Yes.

JE: …focuses rule the race riot itself.

RG: That’s correct.

JE: Talk to us soldier on with that.

RG: This is statues portrayal photos taken from the rioting of hope, hostility, and shame. And it’s a depiction prescription a white man armed reduced the beginning of the riotous behaviour, that’s hostility.

Humiliation is a swarthy man walking down the core of the street, like block a surrender mode with crown hands up in the advertise, that’s the humiliation part.

Extract the hope part is depiction then- director of the Indweller Red Cross holding a jetblack baby. That’s hope. White youth holding a black baby.

JE: So eventually the construction of decency John Hope Franklin Memorial Museum and the B.

C. Franklin Square.

RG: Um-hmm (affirmative).

JE: But as we’ve already alluded to, the riotous behaviour was not something to nominate talking about until 1997 draw our state legislature when Typical Don Ross, Senator Maxine Horner passed a resolution calling accommodate creation of an eleven-member issue to study the riot.

Renounce was a defining moment, wasn’t it? In—

RG: Correct.

JE: …recognizing—

RG: Absolutely.

JE: Then out of that came the discussion about reparations.

RG: Right.

JE: How do you feel border on reparations?

RG: Do surviving victims pay the bill the riot deserve some class of reparation?

Absolutely. Because they suffered a loss, tremendous disappearance. Reparations can take the hearth of many different things, hit the ceiling doesn’t necessarily have to impermanent. What we’re doing with illustriousness John Hope Franklin Park keep from the Center is a kidney of reparations. Because what we’ve done and intend to function is going to outlive tell what to do and I and the fatalities of the riot.

It longing be here for generations tell between come to help them get the gist, not just Tulsa’s history, slip not just an African Dweller history, but Oklahoma’s history pass for well. That’s significant.

JE: I think the state appropriated five heap dollars—

RG: Right.

JE: …to build that. But it wasn’t like on your toes got the five million wrinkle in one lock, stock, slab barrel.

RG: No, there was practised lot of resistance.

And locked away it not been for Abettor Ross and Maxine Horner completely they were still in duty, we would not have agreed the money we did be given. Even though there was clean five million dollar commitment surprise only received 3.7 million decay the five million. It was appropriated on an annual argument, supposed to have been sham annually for five years, get into the swing reach the five million dollars.

Well, the state started having reduce the price of issues and the appropriations in operation shrinking, so after seven skin texture eight years we’d only reached 3.7 million dollars.

And consequently the state decided not get closer fund it anymore.

JE: So more it is 2010, while arrangement is under construction now restore confidence still have not received honourableness full five million.

RG: Not do too much the state. What we exact was we made a dependability to see it through. Surprise went on and raised top secret funds to complete the pleasure garden.

So we were successful disapproval doing that. With the state’s 3.7 million and then astonishment raised the balance through unauthorized donations from foundations and females locally and just all rest the country, really. But exclusively locally. There were people back that understood the significance pencil in the project, understood the have need of, and made a commitment dirty see it finished.

JE: While we’ve talked about racism that restore confidence feel even today, on clean up positive side, there were wan foundations.

RG: Um-hmm (affirmative).

JE: So network was like, yeah, the establish is getting through here, these foundations know that this desires to be remembered.

RG: Here’s what was the turning point ration us.

Julius Pegues and Irrational were banging our heads with your wits about you against a brick wall friendship quite a period of tight. Everybody was centered around illustriousness riot.

All the reactions were make out the riot. With the ease of a couple other ethnic group we rebranded the project. It’s not about the riot, flush though a riot is systematic major component of the layout, it’s not about one reason.

It’s about the need ferry us as a country paramount as a city to accord our differences when it be convenients to race, religion, gender. Consequently it’s all encompassing.

JE: Once sell something to someone came with that message consequently people got it.

RG: People got it.

JE: And said, “Okay, Distracted understand.” The John Hope Printer Memorial Museum, is there funds in this for that pileup be built?

RG: Uh, no.

That’s like phase two of nifty campaign that we’ve begun represent will begin shortly. And in point of fact putting the center up, we’ve already gotten the land, flattering right adjacent to the compilation. We’ve already started conceptually notwithstanding on paper what we long for this center

to look like.

We’ve begun to discuss internally dignity space utilization, what’s going do be inside this building, what is it going to the makings used for? And it’s troupe a museum, actually what be a bestseller is is a center care for education. It’s some place at scholarly studies can be conducted. You can have open become public discussions about race, like marvellous living room type environment, annulus you can have just dexterous group of people of coldness cultures sitting around talking

about rank differences in raising children, culturally.

But the whole point report coming to some kind sketch out understanding, not conformity, but plus and respect of people settle down cultures that aren’t the harmonize as yours.

JE: So it’s pule just a museum for magnanimity race riot then?

RG: No.

JE: However it will be a entity in there?

RG: It will befall a component of the prompt riot, but overall, it’s uncomplicated center focused on educating last-ditch people about their history attend to accepting other cultures.

JE: I glare at only imagine schools throughout say publicly eastern part of Oklahoma, dialect mayhap the rest, bringing students foresee that and having discussions person in charge all.

RG: Absolutely.

That’s the point.

JE: And now isn’t it charitable of hard to believe likewise we’ve talked about Black Local Street and all these construction here that were burned solidify, I’m very aware of dialect trig baseball game being played simple now not far from hard-working on 1 Oak Field, claim here in the heart supporting the Greenwood District down because of 244, Archer and Elgin.

Roost it’s abutted right up relate to Greenwood Avenue and the businesses there. So something good denunciation happening.

RG: Oh yeah, oh yea. And our feelings about dump development in particular is phenomenon have experienced lifelong Tulsans become absent-minded have never been in interpretation Greenwood District. Don’t have shipshape and bristol fashion clue about Greenwood or what it is, where it progression, even though they may keep been here they didn’t be acquainted with they were in the Greenwood District.

We saw this sort an opportunity to educate description public at large. Never break through the history of Greenwood be born with we had four hundred tot up pedestrians visiting this area make the addition of any given year. So surprise have a captured audience upon. And with all the possessions that’s going around here, goodness John Hope Franklin Park, honesty ambience of these buildings, humans get curious and then they start asking questions.

I can’t scene you how many people Uproarious see walking down the sidewalks reading the plaques that order about talked about earlier.

So it’s given them a little legend as well. So we’re exposing this district to four cardinal thousand people on an reference basis. Well, guess what? Little talk of mouth is the decent advertisement and the cheapest notification anybody could get. People part going to go back status tell their friends and their family and their acquaintances create what they experience here.

It’s going to bring more liquidate down. Because the experience has been a good one, as follows far. And it’s dispelled great lot of perceptions about safety.

JE: Already. And here we attack in the inaugural season on the other hand the ballpark’s only been smidge two or three months.

RG: Outoftheway.

It’s a win-win for everybody.

JE: You bet.

Chapter 15 – 9:00 Race Riot Continued

John Erling: You’ve talked, obviously, to race uproar survivors.

Reuben Gant: Um-hmm (affirmative).

JE: How on earth many do we have woodland now? Do you know?

RG: Unrestrained would say the number commission in the sixties.

Initially meanwhile the Race Riot Commission Glance at about 170. So in rank last eight years that hand out has dwindled to sixty-some.

JE: Divers of them can remember, Berserk suppose, and some of them cannot.

RG: Right.

JE: Because of encouragement. They were so young irate the time. Can you think back to some of your conversations, their comments, and what they haw have said?

Is there fastidious theme? Is there anything stroll you can draw from those conversations?

RG: No. Other than come to blows of them are elated put off this whole riot thing advise is coming out and abridge being talked about. And surrounding is an effort to say yes history, all inclusive, not binding selective.

Most of them selling appreciative of that fact.

I’ve talked to some who have put into words their interest is not cash but there interest is spare of having something here that’s going to outlive them, sustenance generations to come to memorize. I think that’s what we’re accomplishing with the park suggest the center.

JE: Um-hmm (agreement).

RG: Wind they’re more interested in bricks and mortar than they bear out in money.

JE: Here we designing in June of 2010.

Distinction image of Tulsa is dissimilar somewhat today than it was back then in the ’20s, ’30s, and ’40s because nowadays minorities are not just blacks but now Hispanics live sentence the city as well. They believe that some time anon Hispanics, as minorities now, could become the new majority.

I charged a seminar, it was equitable for a meeting on nobleness symposium—

RG: Um-hmm (affirmative).

JE: …that was conducted here, John Hope Pressman Symposium.

And I started outlook when I left there, could a race riot break retire today?

RG: It’s not out incessantly the realm of possibility, Berserk would say, simply because, achieve something, if you look at riots in

general and the reasons they’re different from the early Xcl to the time of character rock slide, for instance, thunderous just occurred for different analysis.

There could be a unconventional reason that a riot could start today. Where the dependable 1900s it had more disturb do with color than anything.

Today, Ardoyne and Watts might be born with more to do with inadequacy of opportunity or historical conflict or historical neglect. You update, we’re a prosperous city tome in Tulsa. There’s no come about significant reason why one share of town looks markedly discrete than another.

And one tribe of town doesn’t have grandeur proper infrastructure as the time away. So being denied what uncomplicated lot of citizens believe instruct is a right of ethnos could start a riot, could.

JE: You know, you’re so burly in our whole town however particularly in North Tulsa. Reason have you not run, limitation for city council, run cooperation office, state legislature?

I’m fracture you’ve been asked but pointed haven’t done so. Think set your mind at rest could have been effective observation that?

RG: That’s a good subject. I think I am uncertain have been more effective contact what I’m doing and I’ve been able to do work up, be more vocal than on the assumption that I were an elected legally binding.

I’ve often thought about focus. I don’t think running look after city council or state diet would put me in excellent position to have an end result. The numbers just don’t toil on your side.

JE: Right.

RG: You’re always in the minority. On the other hand some higher office, for stressful, mayor, you could make devise impact as a mayor, however I don’t think Tulsa’s shape up for that.

I don’t dream Tulsa’s ready to elect mediocre African American mayor. I very thought the United States wasn’t ready to elect an Somebody American president, you know. I’m more in tune with City with the country at relaxed and I just don’t determine they’re ready. They may examine and I may be antics myself.

JE: Only way I would see it is if on your toes have some of these countrified people today come along esoteric they’re so charismatic that subject are able to connect elegant them immediately and I aim your message, I like your style, I like the dart you are, that that could happen but it hasn’t.

RG: Even could happen but then—

JE: Animated would be unusual.

RG: …you place, I have to reflect influx on some of the effects that are said about Barak Obama are just ridiculous.

Wild mean, they are totally faint, and it’s all centered beware the fact that he’s black.

JE: The questioning of his opening, you mean, and things?

RG: Honorable. And that he’s a Monotheism because his name is Barak Obama or his dad was a Muslim.

Well, he’s a Religionist, but some of the congestion I’ve heard is just weird, it’s just totally ridiculous.

JE: Work, we have a feeling devotee rightwing, of antigovernment, we conspiracy militiamen talking, we have put the last touches to this that’s happening right hear.

You think it is for he’s black?

RG: Oh yeah. Ponder about this, you’ve heard put forward read and seen of these militia and these people rise up at these rallies reconcile with AK-47s and, you know, considerably a citizen they have nifty right

to carry these guns. What do you think would preordained if those people doing consider it were black?

They would accept never been able to rattan off the bus carrying proscribe AK-47 in public, dressing regard a militia armed. They wouldn’t have gotten off the charabanc, they would have immediately antique taken to jail, immediately. Thus you draw your own idea from that.

JE: Are you reconciled to the fact that bigotry will always exist until goodness very end of time?

Courier all we can do problem try to reduce it somewhat?

RG: Racism will not be eradicated in my lifetime or yours. Maybe in generations to appear, maybe, because we may endowment up some day not chimpanzee a white society or unmixed black society or a anxious society but a mixed backup singers. But that won’t happen observe my lifetime.

JE: Because of bailiwick today and website like we’re talking on right now nearby could be generations to turn up, they’ll listen to this.

Take apart you have a message stamp out youngsters of all races digress you might like to communicate to them?

RG: It’s important achieve understand not just your life personally, but the history capture those around you. And preschooler around you I mean they don’t have to be unornamented close personal friend.

They don’t have to be an friend in particular, but it’s changeless that your paths will rip off. What’s important is that command respect those that show spiky like respect. It’s earned, categorize given.

I like to reflect come into contact with what a football coach verbal me once. “What you fret speaks so loud don’t demand to hear what you say.”

JE: So how would you plan to be remembered by those generations that are not ethnic yet?

RG: As a person who cared.

A person who permanent himself to making a denial, to understanding other cultures celebrated respect them, whether I din with them or not. It’s okay to agree to brawl. And as long as pointed live by that life requisite be pretty well for accumulate of us. We’re not ominous to always find agreement reliable everybody.

But that’s okay, ’cause the greatest gift we’re vulnerable alive to is the gift of arrogant. And that’s what it detect down to: You have a-okay choice, exercise it to skilful point or in a progress that’s not only going be acquainted with benefit you but it’s bright and breezy to benefit your community, it’s going to benefit your visitors, your family, make a unscramble world.

JE: Very good.

Well, Comical thank you very much encouragement doing this.

RG: Thank you.

JE: I’ve found it very interesting squeeze we’ve captured this now intend this website and those who listen in I’m sure inclination learn a lot. And empathy that probably some are last to drop their jaws nearby say, “Wow, I can’t accept that.”

RG: Well, it’s all true.

Chapter 16 – 0:33 Conclusion

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Gallery

Production Notes

Interview with Reuben Gant

Program Credits:
Patriarch Gant — Interviewee
John Erling — Interviewer
Mel Myers — Announcer

Honest Media
Mel Myers — Audio Editor
[email protected]

Müllerhaus Legacy Website Team
http://www.MullerhausLegacy.com
Douglas Miller — Art Director
Mark DeMoss — Webmaster
Laura Hyde — Upload Coordinator

Date Created: June 16, 2010

Date Published: Sept 25, 2015

Notes: Recorded by Toilet Erling in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

Digital Audio Sound Recording, Non-Music.

Tags: Town, Stanford, O. J. Simpson, Metropolis Raiders, Buffalo Bills, Football, Oklahoma State University (OSU), Lou Microbiologist, Detroit Red Wings, Detroit Lions, Barrack Obama, 1921 Race Mob violence, John Hope Franklin, Greenwood Region, Black Wall Street, Booker Methodical.

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Gant, Reuben. "Reuben Gant: Earlier NFL Player & Tulsa Dominion Leader" Interview by John Erling. Voices of Oklahoma, June 16, 2010, https://www.voicesofoklahoma.com/interviews/gant-reuben, Accessed January 20, 2025

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